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DIgging into the TrueCar Controversy

 

The TrueCar discussions have kicked up a storm of controversy in our industry.  It’s easy to get sucked into the feeding frenzy that the fight engenders – bad mouthing, name calling, posing speculation as facts.  In response, DrivingSales aimed to find out the real arguments and the face-value answers.  We scoured the discussions online, watched hours of video, policed the print, and even spoke with one of the leaders of the battle, Jerry Thibeau of Phone Ninjas, to find out what really are the arguments against TrueCar.  Then, we did the same thing on the other side, including a question and answer session with Scott Painter, CEO of TrueCar.  What follows is an unbiased view of the controversy, aiming to confirm or bust the statements that fuel the TrueCar controversy. 

The Car is a Commodity:  FALSE

It’s frustrating that TrueCar is trying to frame dealers’ products as a commodity, completely stripping from it the experience and value you provide in the transaction.  If you sell your cars as if they are commodities, then you deserve these dealer cost prices because you’re not bringing any value to the customer experience.  But that’s not the case with most dealers.  Most dealers want to provide an all-star car buying experience so customers will return.  The fact that TrueCar considers cars a commodity is the very reasoning by which they support posting car pricing that show below dealer cost.  They’re saying that there is no additional benefit to the purchase price other than the car.   But price isn’t about cost and profit, it’s about value.  People pay extra for added value, and do so happily.  Brand value is the reason Honda disallowed their pricing on the TrueCar site, and brand value is the very reason TrueCar won’t share their financial statements with the many dealers who have repeatedly asked for it on open forums – because it’s worth more than the dollars and cents that it costs to generate.

TrueCar is stealing Dealers’ DMS data: FALSE

It’s not stealing if you give it to them.  Dealers who are signed up on TrueCar have agreed and willfully allow TrueCar to scour their customer information to track the sale of a car through the TrueCar introductions. They purchase transactional information from over 30 sources including banks, lending profiles, registration information, etc.  The idea that dealers could shut down TrueCar by keeping them out of their DMS system is simply inaccurate.  According to Painter, through all the sources that they buy data, they are seeing 90% of all car transactions across the United States.  So even if all 18% of dealers in the market that they have access to (as reported by Painter) suddenly and permanently stopped providing their transactional data, TrueCar still would hold the lion’s share of the information and have the most accurate reporting of car sales transactions. 

Of course, True Car isn’t the only vendor that dealers allow into their DMS.  There are a multitude of vendors we let in for a variety of reasons, so the fact that dealers are letting TrueCar in should not in itself rile up the amount of controversy that this company has stirred up.  And if it weren’t TrueCar exposing the transactional data in this depth, it would inevitably be somebody else.

But TrueCar is using our data against us!  TRUE and FALSE

To say that TrueCar is using the dealer DMS data to power the TrueCar curve is incorrect.  In fact, it is against TrueCar’s privacy policy to do so and if it is being done, then there’s altogether a more legal issue at hand, which we are neither privy to nor qualified to make statements about.   But the data that TrueCar is providing to consumers does go against you. 

It’s not that transparency is bad, though that’s another argument in itself.  The data that TrueCar is presenting is real.  It’s a numbers game and their giving it to the customers straight.  The problem is that the data being shared is not rooted in any context.  If a car is sold below invoice, even below dealer cost, it could be for a number of reasons – it’s too old, bonus income, more inventory, etc.  But TrueCar doesn’t share that information with their consumers; all they show are the numbers.  So this transparent data sharing is in fact just as misleading as not sharing it because they haven’t given the consumers the practical information that goes with all data points, including the outliers on both ends.  So an actionable solution to this problem doesn’t lie in trash talking on the internet.  Train your sales staff to be able to adequately explain to their customers what the TrueCar data isn’t.  That’s the low price doesn’t explain trade-ins, odd colors, inventory issues.  Arm them with the tools they need to enlighten the customer with market knowledge.  Empower them to be the trusted advisor they are.

Painter declared to us as well as in his letter to the automotive industry that about 20% of cars sold in 2011 are at a loss, as if that makes it better – it doesn’t.  But it’s 20% for a reason: because anything more than that is not sustainable.  Companies don’t stay in business by selling their goods at cost.  It doesn’t pencil.  Yet, they portray to their consumers that such a price is not only possible, it’s fair.  Painter directly revealed to us he doesn’t subscribe to the notion that people will see cheaper prices and feel entitled to them.  He instead thinks people will see what the costs are to the dealer and voluntarily pay a higher price.  It’s possible, but all of the comments from real customers that have generated over a number of neutral, non-automotive sales sites have not expressed that sentiment.  They want a lower price.  Who wouldn’t?

TrueCar encourages a ‘Race to the Bottom’:  FALSE - Not in practice.

The slippery slope is a fallacy. Unquestionably, Painter paints the picture to consumers that dealers and salespeople are dishonest and untrustworthy to consumers.  But in addition to price, location and selection are huge factors in a customer choosing a car dealership.  It’s always been like that.  When we started seeing fixed pricing on the Internet, the same fear arose: “Only the dealers with the lowest price will get the customer!”  This same sentiment came about when people started valuing their trade-ins online.  And when Edmunds, KBB, RealCarTips.com and all the other sites that are motivated by fixed or inventory pricing popped on the scene, the lowest priced dealer was prematurely deemed the only would-be survivor, duking it out at the bottom with whoever is left.  Yet here we are, over a decade later, selling cars.  The information is out there to be had – this isn’t new.  But either people aren’t finding it, aren’t looking for it, or at times, don’t have any interest in it.  The lowest price doesn’t always win.  Customer service, experience, location, selection, and trust are dominant and are all things that a dealer has control over. These are some of the many things that distinguish automotive retail from a commodities market.

TrueCar wants to eliminate the salesperson from the business.  TRUE

Although Painter said in his interview with us that he encourages the customer to go to the dealer and try to find the right car for them, and that TrueCar supports that one-on-one dealer relationship, his public statements, time and again, evidence the opposite.   Even as far back as 2008, when TrueCar more or less launched at a TechCrunch conference, Painter stated that there are too many dealers and it’s “completely unnecessary” to have so many, directly indicating that there’s no need for a large number of dealers as it stands now.  What’s interesting is that TrueCar wants to provide not only customers with information, but also dealers with information that they can use to target their audience.  He relayed some data to DrivingSales in our interview about car buying behaviors; for example, in some zip codes, people will travel 100 miles to save $100 on a car sale, but in other zip codes, namely the Los Angeles area, people won’t travel 5 miles to save $5000 – a direct indicator that multiple dealers are needed to serve the customer as they want to be served.  People still have their loyalties – to brands and to dealerships.  People want someone to hold their hand, to confirm their information, and to hand them the keys.  Those things don’t change just because some people are interested in a better deal.  Most cars won’t sell without you. 

Now What?

TrueCar is a company that saw a need in the industry from a consumer perspective and is capitalizing on the opportunity.  Everything new that has come across a dealer’s table in the past has done the same thing: frightened the dealer on the possibility of extinction.  But that’s the nature of any business.  New ideas, products, or models arrive that change the space and force businesses to adapt if they want to survive and thrive.  TrueCar may or may not be good for our industry, but it is not going away.  Neither is it taking over the lion's share of the media market, at least not with a cost per action model tied to the sale.   

When it comes right down to it, no dealer's future ever rested in the hands of the media, and surely not one tiny slice of it.  How will the advent of this company and similar ones challenge you to be better?  What will you do to ensure your space in the market and continue to improve the company you, your family, or investors set out to create?


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by Brian Pasch 5 months ago:

Lindsey and Dennis, this is a well formed piece of this hot topic.

I would add that the another compelling issue that was not discussed in this initial piece. Is TrueCar state advertising and brokerage laws.

For example, one state dealer association has told me that they will be sending out a letter to all their members informing them that their legal counsel has advised them that TrueCar breaks over five automotive advertising and brokerage laws.

Is the TrueCar model acting as an automotive broker? If so, many states have licensing laws for brokers or forbids brokering at all.

Is the Price Protection Certificate compliant with states that require the advertised price to include all fees, regardless of disclaimers?

As soon as the letter this released this week, I will post the link. To me, dealers can debate the merits of the TrueCar model but if dealers will be wide open for lawsuits, this is a much bigger issue.

My concern is that as soon as these state associations go public with the claims, opportunity seekers will start filing lawsuits against dealers. So, let's keep an eye on the legal issues, which could end up to be the real costs involved in being a TrueCar member dealer.
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by Lindsey Auguste 5 months ago:

Thanks for your feedback, Brian and for bringing up an equally important issue. We weren't able to really dig into this particular issue with Mr. Painter in our interview with him. When I asked him if it was true that TC dealers weren't allowed to share with their customers that they pay fees to TC for the sale of a car, Mr. Painter stated that they were not obligated to share this information as they would be if TC was a broker for the car sale. I wonder what their arguments are as to why they do not consider themselves brokers and if those arguments translate across state lines. We'd love for you to share that letter when it comes out so we can all stay informed on the topic. Thanks for your help!
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by Dee Rawls 4 months ago:

Thanks for referring me to this discussion Linsey...

At least one state (California) has seen local dealers source a legal introspective on the matter of whether TRUECAR.COM is functioning as a "broker" and what the ramifications might be if so. Check it out here:
http://www.dealerrefresh.com/california-on-truecars-legal-liabilities/#comments
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by Dee Rawls 4 months ago:

That would be Lindsey...left out the "d" of all letters. My apologies.

The simple fact of the matter is Scott Painter hasn't done anything to harm any specific dealer community. A more savvy consumer market is an inevitable result of the Internet evolving as an information delivery platform. Anyone besides dealers making it work for leveraging a sales proposition across automotive spaces isn't necessarily breaking a law in-so-much-as just plain beating the dealer at his own game. As you and Dennis Galbraith have brought forth in the gist of your discussion, here, the burden of adapting to Auto Retail Future lies in the hands of the dealer.

While Scott Painter has been busying himself taking over niches that deliver automotive consumers to dealerships for the past 7 years, what have dealers been doing about it?

At question is how the value proposition for dealerships will be delivered in the 'little box' - as in the email, Iphone, search field, or other active communications portal that admits delivery of information in an Internet era. Advertising is now a dynamic conversation. The 'Big Box' is no longer a linear equation for large profits.

Are there any NADA courses on this matter? Probably not. Are dealers aiming at ZAG/TRUECAR models with better, more knowledgeable and well thought out models of their own that can compete in the lead generation space? Not probable... Are they cussing and fussing and pointing fingers about where they are in Auto Retail Present? Some are.

When dealers realize that selling cars is not a vending machine proposition for consumers just because of the pricing on Internet websites, then they will accomplish more. In fact, Atlanta area dealers have in many instances shown the professional capacity to generate very competitive profit margins even on ZAG and TRUECAR.COM generated business. All they do is Excel at Automotive Sales Consulting instead of acting like Scott Painter's droids.

The 'true' only mechanism for powering a platform like TRUECAR.COM is the demand for information/knowledge in the car buying process. That cannot be communicated in a price alone. And, that dealers would spend their time learning the ways to leverage Internet as a direct value to their own business models might be a bit much to expect (I know of only one big example AutoUSA, and it was appalling to me that dealers would buy those leads from a competing dealer entity). But among industries affected by the paradigm shift web technologies demand, auto retail is one that still relies distinctively upon 'the handshake'. Consultants who have done it best in the past, still do it best in the present. This is an industry that revolves around people and socialization - networking. If I remember correctly, it was the people (in fact, I was one of them) who told the computers what to do with the online automotive consumer in the first place. And, I would argue that whether a lead is generated at TRUECAR.COM or anywhere else across the world wide web, that the auto retail transaction boils down to active communications between a consumer and a consultant.

As some bald-headed commentator might say, "Anything else is uncivilized".
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by Jim Bell 5 months ago:

Gotta love the TrueCar debate. I looked at signing up with ZAG about a year ago, and really looked at it and it just didn't make financial sense to go forward with them. Why would a dealer spend all kinds of money with their online advertising, and then on top of that, pay an additional $300 to ZAG/TrueCar to lose money. I know of a 17 roof top dealer that had all of their stores on the program. Since all of this has come out in the last few weeks, they have since canceled their partnership with them. They did their cost analysis and it was a 'nightmare.' Chances are, you are going to get that same customer that would have submitted a lead with TrueCar or with any of the other providers. As Jerry said it, "Kill the Beast."
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by Rob Fontano 5 months ago:

As a dealer that has used Zag/TrueCar, I can tell you that they do pit dealers against each other every month. You will receive a report telling you where you need to be to be competitive with like makes and models even if you are 100 miles or more apart.

It is the dealers choice to lower their prices in order to garner more leads, but if the customer is in your back yard and the other two dealers are 100 miles away, the customer still walks in with the TrueCar pricing from those dealers. That in effect creates a "race to the bottom" in my mind and drives down the value of those vehicles in those markets.
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by Arnold Tijerina 5 months ago:

Reality is that as long as any dealers are using TrueCar as a lead source, they'll do as you say Rob, print out the price from your competitor who IS on TrueCar and bring it into YOUR dealership. In most cases, even though you aren't on the TrueCar program, your desk managers will still "try" and sell the car to the consumer if only to move a unit. Only upside is you won't have to pay the $300 fee to TrueCar.

Bottom line is that dealers are sending this data. Nobody is stealing it. If a dealer has an issue with anyone using their data, they should be aggressive in reading contracts and policing their own data. It's their responsibility to know what data is being sent, to whom, and how its being used. Simply pointing a finger at TrueCar and making them the bad guy is misguided. They aren't the only player in the game.

This is the most objective article I've read about this situation. Kudos.
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by Jim Elliott 5 months ago:

Good article! Long before TrueCar there was always a competitor in your market selling cars at or below invoice, and there always will be. Reality is that new car margins have been reducing since the 1980's and are now paper thin. This is a business with multiple profit centers to withstand low new car margins, and dealers with high service absorption continue to win the battle in the marketplace. TrueCar is accelerating a dealership trends and dynamics that have been in place for years.

Price negotiation is a sensitive issue. Most customers don't want to get take all the dealers profit at ridiculously high prices. They just want to know they are not getting creamed and paying hundreds/thousands more. Good one-price dealers are more transparent about pricing in their market and build trust that way. Consumers are looking more for transparency than for crazy low prices.
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by Mark Tewart 5 months ago:

As mentioned by Brian in the comment above, I don't think there is any doubt that their current advertising platform is not only misleading by most state guidelines but could also be considered illegal. I would ask one of the industry lawyers to weigh in on this. Is it possible for you to give an opinion on the ads. I can tell you that if a dealer ran ads like this they would be hammered quickly.
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by Jim Kristoff 5 months ago:

TrueCar has done a great job of taking $299.00 worth of profit from the Dealers pockets and put it in their own!

Kill the Beast!
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by Jennifer Greenberg 5 months ago:

Thank you for this insightful incredibly useful summary. I have tried to stay on top of the controversy but there's just so many valid, heated opinions that there doesn't seem to be time in the day to read it all.

You mention several times what I feel to be the most important part of the issue that seems to be discussed least; the degradation of the consumer experience that is caused by TrueCar's misleading premise that the car is a commodity.

They prey on the adversity between consumer and dealer; without it they could not profit. So they must fuel it, leading the customer to wish the car was a commodity instead of seeing the value of a consultative purchase experience. I've watched customers squirm and wish they hadn't tried to buy a car this way when they're in the showroom buying a car they never got a real product presentation before they started using the service.

An interesting sidenote -I noticed in the discussion that TrueCar keeps emphasizing a shocking $2,000 difference in price for what was allegedly the same car. This seems like a lot, but it is just 6.75% of the average new car price of $29602 (data from TrueCar, as quoted in the NY Times.) I paid $20 for a Christmas gift at a store last week and when I checked out, they put a flyer in my bag advertising that the very same item would be $12 the next week. That's a 40% difference. While $8 isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, I'm sure we'd see these same fluctuations in lots of pricier items like furniture and electronics. We don't get mad at Best Buy for changing prices or accuse them of "discriminating against the non-Black-Friday-shopper," despite what can be 20-40% changes in pricing. That's because no one would profit from it.
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by JEREMY ALICANDRI 5 months ago:

While I certainly appreciate Lindsey and Dennis insight, their attempt to qualify this debate with a “TRUE" or "FALSE" definition was overly ambitious. Many of these emerging issues lack precedents or the sufficient transparency(and verification) required to reach a definitive “TRUE or FALSE” conclusion. However, in other cases (e.g. the 'race to the bottom), we can cite the emergence of comparison shopping engines (e.g. shopping.com) for a strategic understanding of TrueCar’s impact. Later today, time permitting, I will address discuss some of the points in this article in my blog.
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by Lindsey Auguste 5 months ago:

Hi Jeremy, thanks for your feedback. You are absolutely right to say that this is a simplification of the issues. WIthout composing a 50 page thesis with a reference section or a series of extensive blogging attempts, there is no real way to get a comprehensive look at the issue, as evidenced by Brian's first comment that we left something out (and thank you, Brian, for bringing that into the discussion). Given the time and space constraints, we posed this as a starting point for a balanced discussion and summary of the controversy that has been churning. I look forward to your discussion in both your blog and here on the forum. You have expressed knowledgeable insight on the matter and I expect your feedback to be both helpful to the discussion and informative.
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by Kevin Bookbinder 5 months ago:

Great point Jennifer. I agree price is a liquid component of the transaction and dependent upon an endless supply of variables. Dollar discount vs. percentile discount tells a far less compelling story in the context you provide..... Well said!
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by Jim Radogna 5 months ago:

What a breath of fresh air! Thanks Lindsey and Dennis for a well-thought-out and well-written article. High emotion, name calling, accusations, and Doomsday predictions are not helpful to anyone. Dealers need to make important decisions about how TrueCar will affect their business and access to unbiased information like this is critical. Bravo!
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by Lindsey Auguste 5 months ago:

Thanks Jim, much appreciated. It's understandable that there are heated perpectives on this topic and reasonably so, but we wanted to generate a conversation that laid out many of the main issues in such a way that we can start to think about where to move from here. This article could have listed a number of other concerns, but brevity was necessary as well. Thanks again.
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by JEREMY ALICANDRI 5 months ago:

OPINION: Many dealers rely on DrivingSales for conclusive information - information that allows them to make comfortable decisions. Unfortunately, I do not feel your points substantiate any True/False conclusion. And while I agree that a thorough and impartial analysis of TrueCar would be seemingly unending and perhaps impossible, I feel that excluding the True/False statements was more appropriate. With that said, I am going to LA this weekend to meet with Scott Painter and TrueCar. My goal is NOT to chase the “truth,” as I’m certain my attempts would be futile. But instead, cover the major issues with Scott, and hopefully provide input to assist with moving the industry forward. Even if TrueCar does not succeed, the introduction of comparison shopping engines is here to stay. More than TrueCar, I fear TrueCar copycats, and there’s no better time to assist with this paradigm shift than now.
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by Lindsey Auguste 5 months ago:

Jeremy, that's great! Cheers to you for being so dedicated to the industry and ensuring it's progression in the future. I'm sure we're all eager to hear how it turns out and what your subsequent opinions and perspective are. #stoked
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by David Ruggles 5 months ago:

My point by point reply to Scott Painter's open letter to the world:

http://autosandeconomics.blogspot.com/2011/12/war-with-truecar.html
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by Larry Bruce 5 months ago:

Dennis this is a well thought out response to a growing controversy in our industry. Glad to see you take it on with an unbiased JD Power type approach.

Like you I have stayed on the sidelines of this for a while but I think I will add a few comments of my own here.

The Car is a Commodity: Actually that is TRUE

Definition of 'Commodity'
A basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other commodities of the same type. Commodities are most often used as inputs in the production of other goods or services. The quality of a given commodity may differ slightly, but it is essentially uniform across producers. When they are traded on an exchange, commodities must also meet specified minimum standards, also known as a basis grade.

This is the very definition of a car and even to a large extent used cars. The “CAR” is a commodity what is not is the dealership you buy that car from. I have said this many times before and been criticized for it:

“Retail Automotive is a service business with a product offering”

The reason TrueCar even exists is because we don't think this way. It’s time for dealers to take their customer service game to a new level and really get serious about it, not just give it lip service.

But TrueCar is using our data against us! TRUE and FALSE

Here again Dennis I will have to vehemently disagree, I believe TureCar is using DMS data to power the TureCar Curve, even if they are not then it certainly started that way.

"True Car isn’t the only vendor that dealers allow into their DMS. There are a multitude of vendors we let in for a variety of reasons, so the fact that dealers are letting TrueCar in should not in itself rile up the amount of controversy that this company has stirred up. And if it weren’t TrueCar exposing the transactional data in this depth, it would inevitably be somebody else."

I absolutely disagree with this statement. Like too many vendors Zag got into the DMS and took FAR MORE DATA than it needed for its purpose, to match sales records for billing, and it’s from that additional data TrueCar was born.

In any case the sale price of a car originates with the dealership and is a private transaction between the dealer and the customer, and NOT for public consumption.

The problem with any 3rd party that produces a price to entice customers to convert is that they have no dog in the fight and no control over that price ie: no consequences

If a dealer were to show a price that could not be obtained they would immediately be under scrutiny from the Attorney General’s office but because TrueCar and Edmunds and others that produce a price to entice conversion are not car dealers and have no inventory they have no responsibility “Just get the lead and sell it”.

Perhaps the state Attorney Generals offices should be looking at TrueCar? I don't know the answer to that one but it’s something I am sure would intrigue a few AG’s.

Bottom Line

Dealers, Zag started as an affinity program for a few that wanted a no hassle experience with one price (a good thing) Zag stepped over the line taking dealer data, I don't care where they get it, and exposing it to the public as “The Real Price” when it clearly is NOT.

Now they are in bed with DealerTrack & god only know what credit app data DealerTrack is supplying, your DMS data may not be necessary anymore, the TrueCar Curve may be powered by millions of price transactions from credit apps and another legal issue in itself, not for TrueCar, Zag or DealerTrack but for the dealership who is ultimately responsible for the information given it by the customer.

Dennis to say this is not about the data is totally wrong IT IS ALL ABOUT THE DATA and the dealership needs to protect that data inside the DMS and out because it belongs to them and it is their responsibility.

Just my thoughts

Larry Bruce
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by Lindsey Auguste 5 months ago:

Hi Larry. Excellent points and thank you for the thorough responses. If I understand you correctly, it seems that you have at one two concern I'm curious about. You mention that because the sale price of a car originates with the dealership, that it's the dealership's data and thus, they are repurposing dealer data for sale. That is definitely a frustration. I'm wondering when that information gets processed to finance, lending, registration and forth, is that data still the dealers? And if TrueCar is apparently purchasing that data from those other sources, is our frustration directed in the right place? Perhaps we should re-evaluate the privacy policies we have in place with those affiliations. Curious to know your thoughts.
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by Larry Bruce 5 months ago:

Lindsey the dealer is ultimately responsible for the protection and privacy of that data. Dealers should be taking measures with anyone they share data with inside or out of the DMS to protect that data.
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by Dennis Galbraith 5 months ago:

Larry, thanks for the kind words and challenges. Not to get too hung up on a single word, but one of the features of a commodity is that the value is constant regardless of retailer. The price of West Texas Light Crude sold on NYMEX represents one barrel delivered to Cushing Oklahoma the following month. It doesn't matter who the seller is. That is a commodity. You and I are both saying that it does matter who the consumer buys the vehicle from. I love it when we agree!

You have a good point about the legality of pricing. Some states require that price include things like doc fees everywhere it is posted. Putting doc fees separately into a footnote is expressly not sufficient. Enforcement is another issue, but if the shoe drops on this for offer price, then shouldn't it also fall for past transaction prices used for market guidance. If distribution of transaction pricing is forced to include all related fees, this could impact the model. I'll bet we agree on that too. Keep it coming my friend!
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by Larry Bruce 5 months ago:

Dennis I was looking at it more from a constant cost standpoint. For a new car the cost is the same regardless of the dealer and for used cars, like a commodity the profit isn't in the sale it's in the buy.

That said we do agree that the dealer is the difference without a doubt and I would submit the OEM is also a difference maker.

My wife and I were just having a conversation about her new vehicle. She's been test driving a Mercedes 450 GL for the last couple of days, one of her girlfriends mentioned she should buy the Mercedes because "When you got to the dealership they treat you like royalty" Her perception was that it was the OEM was the difference.

Bottom Line price wasn't the issue.

In the end Zag doesn't sell anything, I think it is presumptuous for Scott Painter to say that "Zag" will sell 1 million cars.

What "Zag" will do is provide 10 million leads to its dealers who hopefully will sell 1 million cars for a whopping profit of maybe $100 million dollars while Zag nets a tidy $299 million dollars. for passing a lead to a few dealerships.

That sounds fair... Right?
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by Brian Pasch 5 months ago:

I'm marking my calendar...I'm giving props to Larry's comment!
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by Larry Bruce 5 months ago:

Ha! Brian someone somewhere just lost the pool :D
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by Brian Pasch 5 months ago:

That's could be the best comment of the day. Keep the passion going. Bravo!
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by Larry Bruce 5 months ago:

Dennis / Lindsey

Where the real investigation need to go is into DealerTrack. So far these guys are getting a pass on this whole thing and no one really knows how involved they are but I bettin they are really deeply involved.

DealerTrack processes millions of apps per month all electronically and all with pricing data, easy pickins for TrueCar and the TureCar Curve.

It is also interesting that Steve Dieitz with GR Partners is on the board of DealerTrack, the board of TrueCar and the board of ResponseLogix who also has access to and processes several thousand price quotes from dealers to customers every month.

If you ask me this whole thing smells to high heaven.

If I am Group1 I am dropping TrueCar, DealerTrack and ResponseLogix until I get some protections in place for my data.
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by Dee Rawls 4 months ago:

At GRP Partners, the idea is to innovate and add value around retail spaces. As a reader of Mark Suster's blog, Both Sides of the Table, I recognize the play on TRUECAR.COM as well leveraged. Auto dealers weren't poised and focused to handle the paradigm shift, so others are stepping in to develop tools and leverage the opportunities. Internet is changing industry across many sectors, and Auto Retail is so enormous that there are succinct values to be found in this space that segway into others. Throughout industry there is plenty of innovation surrounding data protection, lead generation, connectivity, etc. - and clouds in the automotive retail space will be among the most robust proving grounds for these projects. The key is a development ecosystem for testing the grounds of these new frontiers. A travesty to the industry is sitting back and watching while DealerTrack, GRP, or outsiders by any other name innovate in our space because we are too proud to collaborate.

Check out a recent post from his blog on the matter:
http://www.cloudave.com/author/msuster/
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by Keith Shetterly 5 months ago:

Larry, it IS all about the data. Well said. However, a vehicle is NOT a commodity--a consumer commodity is when either a) it breaks and your mindset is completely and always to just buy another one rather than repair it, or b) it breaks and you mail it back to the factory for warranty repair. This is not the case for vehicles. Thanks.
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by Larry Bruce 5 months ago:

Keith I understand what you are saying with your definition of a commodity. However, my point is that the easier it is to find the car you want the less scares the product is. Scarcity defines value in this case and that perceived value defines what you can charge and ultimately make.

The internet as almost eliminated scarcity therefor is putting price pressure on all vehicles new and used and the only differentiator now is the dealership experience both in and out of the store, INCLUDING and most importantly service.
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by Chris Costner 5 months ago:

There is definitely a lot going on regarding this topic. As I always to try to find the good in something, the more I am learning what is happening behind the scenes it makes it tough to find it. Now, putting the DMS arguments on hold for the moment, I am not afraid to say I am a ZAG/TrueCar auto group. I will say as I have said before in another thread on DrivingSales, I am not the most aggressive nor plan to be the most aggressive with the program. The lead volume is low yet occasionally we do make a few deals. The pricing has never been the issue once the client arrived. They all have turned out to be good deals from not being the most aggressive in pricing and then having faith in our other profit centers and letting them take their swing. Now we put the DMS argument back in the picture and the depletion of all value before the customer arrives, I get it and don't disagree.

I think there is a big enough wave that will continue to grow and maybe we all will see some changes regarding TrueCar and their true business model that can work for both parties. What a mess.
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by Mark Ziehr 5 months ago:

As a once upon a time ZAG/Truecar subscriber, the point that drove me away was the way I was badgered to lower my prices to meet the substandard pricing of other dealers. I was hammered constantly to update our pricing. When I would list a price that did not fit into the parameters set by Truecar/ZAG it would be rejected. That is pitting dealer against dealer that are not even in the same market.

Transparency is something that does not exist in the general retail market. Try getting Best Buy or Costco to sell you a large HD TV for their cost less the holdback. You cannot get that information and really it is not for general consumption. I have constantly said Apple does it right. Consumer gleefully FULL PRICE for the quality, product excellence and customer service.model that they have perservered to protect and promote.
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by Gary Patrick 5 months ago:

@ Mark Z-
I find it quite disturbing to hear that TrueCar/ZAG would actively try to manipulate you to adjust your pricing downward. It's particularly disheartening to hear they would reject posting your pricing if it didn't meet their satisfaction. If true, I believe this is smoking-gun evidence of TrueCar acting (illegally) as broker, not just a "lead provider."
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by David Ruggles 5 months ago:

@ Chris - It doesn't trouble you to be complicit with a guy who wants to so fundamentally transform the business as to eliminate the unnecessary tier of distribution? That means your sales people go first. Wonder who is next? Where do YOU fit in the Direct from the Factory model?
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by David Ruggles 5 months ago:

At some point there will be law passed or a current one enforced that will put the quietus on all of this data mining, data sharing stuff. And business models will fold, as well as companies built on venture capital.

In the meantime, dealers might rethink about colluding with those who are trying to bring them down. And that certainly goes for Mike Jackson.
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by Tom Gorham 5 months ago:

Cars may not be a commodity when you are talking about brand competition, but when same-brand dealers in the same general area are competing for the same customer and offering the same vehicle, it becomes a commodity in the customer's mind. The only thing you have left to differentiate yourself is customer service.
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by Chris Costner 5 months ago:

@ David - I have learned more in this past week regarding the real behind the scenes of TrueCar. I never said it didn't trouble me nor did I ever say I was okay with someone trying to transform the business and remove the salesperson altogether. To me it really is a far fetched idea that TrueCar has in that regard as there really needs to be some type of relationship built for someone to spend the type of money they are spending on automobiles.
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by Keith Shetterly 5 months ago:

@ Lindsay/Dennis - I wrote an email to Lindsay about this point: Mathematically, this is DEFINITELY a race to the bottom. The math can get complex, but essentially it's the feedback of "Good" and "Great" pricing required by TC/Zag for a dealer to list the product. Since those two bands are based on the "market" sales, as the body of dealers heads towards 2/3 participating (which is Painter's next goal), then this feedback will send the pricing into what Jackson of Autonation called "a death spiral". He's correct.
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by David Ruggles 5 months ago:

Hey Chris -

The relationship that used to be so important, just isn't so much these days. Younger folks don't care about those things. They think buying a car should be like buying something from Amazon, or a computer from Dell. They will come to the dealership. waste a sales person's time, then go home to use the Internet to negotiate. This IS the trend, whether we like it or not. Yes, we lose many of our advantages when the negotiation takes place remotely. It is what it is. The new consumers think nothing of playing your sales person off against your own Internet Department, or another dealer miles away. The older traditional customer who values the relationship, which means my own age group, is dying off regretfully.

Best regards,

ruggles
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by Vic Multani 4 months ago:

The customer is least bothered if you make any profit to survive for the next month and neither they care for your time. So, as they pay the 'true car price' they still think that they are entitled to a 5 star service---and they get it as well.
The salesman cannot say no---because he has the sword of the SURVEY hanging over his head. He still has to spend an hour plus to deliver the vehicle and in the meantine the customer is getting unhappy by the minute---every small imperfection is being magnified a thousand time----3 different navigation systems and 3 different bluetooth systems and different sound systems in different lines of a brand. The delivery process becomes cumbersome---bad surveys lead to no bonuses---cut in the pay check.
At least the 'true car price' tell a different story as well----the true cost of the vehicle---how the dealer has been stealing the commission from the sales people all these years.
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by Keith Shetterly 4 months ago:

@Vic - I'm not sure I follow how TrueCar's "true cost" of the vehicle sets some new standard on commissions. ?
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by Tom Gorham 5 months ago:

David, I think you make a valid point that relationships between dealers and their customers has weakened. I've heard it said that "Customer Loyalty" is dead... as in gone. I don't truly believe this. I think customers are just more likely to test the relationship to see if they've been being treated fairly over the years. They use the Internet to do this. The key is to not let them down. They are your past, present, and hopefully future. Social Media has become a tool than can assist with this relationship.
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by David Ruggles 5 months ago:

@ Tom - Obviously, customer loyalty is not completely gone, but as my generation and the one behind me die off, the new generations are heartless by comparison. The trend isn't favorable. In fact, the tide has shifted so much the traditional selling models a believed in don't work well. Perhaps in a domestic store in the Midwest..... but I'm talking about the national trend. Having built a substantial business on the old model you might imagine how it pained me to tell my loyal customers I couldn't in all good conscience keep teaching what was a dying process.

About 15 years ago I remember telling a group of dealership execs that if they didn't become personally proficient on computers, not only would they shortly no be an asset to their company, but that they would be a liability. They almost ran me out of the room AND out of the country. It was a Japanese Toyota dealer group consisting of 96 showrooms.

I tried to get the group to offer a discount for employees to buy their own PC and offer training. We've all lived long enough for the prophesy to become true. We take computer skills for granted these days. But if we mistake an internet buyer for a traditional buyer we usually works out badly. The old statistics we used to swear by aren't valid any more.
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by Chris Costner 5 months ago:

Tom and David, I can see where both of you say "Customer Loyalty" has weakened over the years. I will say it is no where near gone. I see loyalty alive and kicking every day at work. It is much more fragile today than ever before but if us dealers work to make each "touch point" with the customer positive during their ownership period, they will make the emotional deposits with you to build that loyalty. It is much more than any "discount card", "bonus points" or "rewards" program could ever do in my opinion.
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by Tom Gorham 5 months ago:

Chris, I absolutely agree with you. You say fragile; I say weakened. Same thing, but the key is excellence in customer service. VIP bonuses and rewards are superficial. That's why Social Media has upped the ante. It's all about creating a relationship with your customers. Thank you!
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by Michael Kinney 5 months ago:

I understand the argument and I understand the apprehension, but TrueCar certainly didn't invent the 'race to the bottom'. I agree that they certainly aren't helping to rid the practice, but dealers pit themselves against each other through mainstream media everyday. We certainly don't have a history of needing a third party site to facilitate cut throat pricing and a market atmosphere of pricing attrition.

Dealers will have to band together to stop the bleeding altogether. Abolishing TrueCar would only be a band-aid until we decide to do that together. In the meantime, it's very hard to ignore that ZAG/TRUECAR's most valuable client base is tied to the largest military financial network on the planet, USAA.

The internet is an information highway. If a customer wants information, they will get it. Most of it will be wrong. So whether it's Kelley Blue Book or TrueCar or the next great self proclaimed savior of the consumer, as dealers we should be concentrating on being great at what we control: training, quality management, proaction and progression.

This debate certainly hasn't sold me any cars. I'm without USAA leads though right now, so it most certainly has cost me some. So my question is now that we know what the problem is, how do we fix it?

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